TERRY GILLIAM

It is often said that our personalities can be affected by the company we keep. If one accepts that premise, it thus easily explains the uniqueness of Terry Gilliam. A one time successful cartoonist, the Minnesota native met John Cleese in the late 1960's while working for Help! Magazine and soon found himself the resident animator for Monty Python's Flying Circus. Performing as well with the troupe, Gilliam began writing several sketches, moving to the big screen as actor and writer with And Now For Something Completely Different (1971).

In 1975, Gilliam was afforded the opportunity to co-direct Monty Python and the Holy Grail and one year later, made his solo helming debut with Jabberwocky. An acknowledged visionary, Gilliam soon found himself among an elite core of filmmakers testing the boundaries of conventional cinema. Films such as Brazil, Time Bandits and The Adventures of Baron Munchausen were critically praised for their bold style and fantasy elements.

His first Hollywood picture, The Fisher King, brought an Oscar nomination for its lead actor Robin Williams; a feat he repeated a few years later with Twelve Monkeys with kudos for Brad Pitt.

Called "visually intoxicating", "wildly ambitious" and "at times perplexing", Gilliam admits that he goes out of his way to make films that are hard to define. But the 64 year-old has a legion of admirers (including Johnny Depp and Robin Williams) who consider his slice of cinematic life to be some of the boldest and most refreshing images on screen today.

How much did you know about the real Brothers Grimm prior to making this film and what changed when you did all your research?

I knew that they wrote these stories. But they didn't. I actually found out that they were merely collectors. There concern was the oral tradition of folklore was dying in Germany and so they wanted it to be written down before all the grandparents of the peasantry died it. So they did write it. Their first publication was over 500 stories and it was a flop. It was too academic and thick so they cut it down to a much smaller number and it took off.

When did it spread from Germany to the rest of the world?

I am not sure of exactly when but I presume it happened in the 19th Century. Perrault in France had done it in France almost a Century earlier so the tales were out there. The German version was that much darker, more dangerous and more twisted (laugh). They come from the Old Norse sagas and they go way, way back.

Did you understand the Tales as a kid?

When I was a kid they all didn't make particular sense. They were interesting but I didn't know what they meant or why they happened. Maybe as you get older it makes more sense. But as I read more about the Brothers, I learned that they became more political active and got themselves in trouble. I think Jacob got exiled for a while. They then set out to write the first German dictionary. It helped create the German language. What was interesting about it was that they only got to F before they died and then there work was carried on. I guess F was for Fairy Tale (laugh).

When you first got the script, why did you decide not to venture down that accurate historical path and just capture more the flavor of what they were about?

I didn't even really care about that. I was more interested in creating the kind of world of Fairy Tales that they brought into international existence and into my childhood. We didn't have a TV when I was growing up so I read books. That is what I was more interested in. The two brothers were interesting because we turned them into two sides of the brain – one was the pragmatist and one was the dreamer. Now you have an interesting conflict developing ad so you can start telling the story. When I was looking at the Grimm book recently it hit me that Jake was actually the older brother. We made him the younger brother. On the other hand, factually we do have the right events happening in the world. Napoleon's army did invade Germany as it was sweeping across Europe. The Age of Reason and Enlightenment was being spread with that. The German culture was older and more superstitious, more complicated at least in the peasantry, and so that new Enlightenment affected the German painters of the time. German romantic painting was a result of the French invasion and as things became more reasonable, they returned to go back to the old world, which was what the Grimm's were keeping alive.

You mention about the Age of Enlightenment. Here we have a world inside this film where people are superstitious and fearful of the unknown – that there are enemies out to get us. Without being too analytical, it does seem that this could almost be a political metaphor for the world today.

You could argue that point. The Age of Enlightenment was about materialism. There was no God anymore. It was things we could measure and what man could do. God was pushed to the background. Today we are in an age where those who are inventing God, looking for God or bringing God back from out there are on the rise and that really worries me. Fundamental religion has always ended up in battles. Fairy Tales are pagan and they are not like that. They are not religious based and I think that is another reason why I liked that. We are in an age that is totally secular although there are those who are looking for something greater to give meanings to their lives.

I was fascinated with how and when you decided to drop fairy tale references into the story. You could have chosen more but you were quite selective. What were your criteria?

I don't remember precisely how it all came about. In the first script in the tower with the Queen, there was a painting. I knew it had to be a mirror. Mirror, Mirror on the wall had to be said. So we moved in a mirror and things started growing that way. Little Red Riding Hood and Hansel and Gretel were in the original script but I kept pushing others in. There was that moment when the old crone in the village goes to the door and knocks. I had her have an apple because I knew people would have the reaction of seeing the witch in Snow White. In the Queen's bedroom, I had the bed about twenty mattresses high so it was the Princess and the Pea. I had the Queen have this incredibly long hair so when Heath jumps out the window, he can yell "Rapunzel" instead of "Geronimo" (laugh). I just kept doing it and it became a game to have these notions of various Fairy Tales.

Your films are known for their visual style. Coming from a strong visual background, as you were an artist, when do you start mapping out the look of the film?

It is all worked out. I write a script with not visual images. It is first and foremost all about character and narrative and story. Then I start building it. I get books out and in this case, 19 th Century German romantic painting and then looked at people like Carl David Freidrich, who drew landscapes and light, and Arthur Rachim, who illustrated Fairy Tales. I looked at illustrations and paintings and that led to me to look for certain locations. Ideas come up there. It is an organic process. There is no clear moment and so I then start slowly building up the world. It is all about the details. When you get the details right, the thing feels believable even though it might be heightened reality or surreal. If the colors are right and the textures are right, then it tells you that we are in a place that exists and not just a CG fantasy out there.

George Lucas sets up his movies where he makes almost all his world CG. As technology has advanced so far, why does Terry Gilliam still like to shoot in camera?

I will use any tools that are available. I have my own effects company and always have used computers. This film has over 750 computer generated shots in it but I want to combine the computer generated part with something that is real. It is good for the actors to be around things that they can smell or get filthy or have scratch and hurt. But to me it is all about mixing the things that are real and the things we can add to make it more magical. I don't enjoy what is happening with Star Wars. They are visually stunning films but they are dead films. I don't believe their worlds. You can't smell or taste them or feel them. My first film Jabberwocky, someone came out of the theater and I heard someone say they had to go home and take a bath because they felt dirty. I liked that because I felt I had done something.

Heath and Matt were both initially cast in the others part. What do you find interesting in casting against type?

For the actor, it is exhilarating because they can go into new territory and stretch themselves. What is frightening is that so many people become stars and they become nervous and so they have to keep delivering the same thing because that is what they think their public is looking for. To me, that is the death of acting with that mentality. For me, good actors given the chance to play something they normally never get to play is a great moment of freedom. I just like it also for the audience. I want to keep awaking audiences and give them things they haven't seen before. I want to surprise them in showing them how Matt could do this or Brad could do that.

You could have easily shot this film in Hollywood or even at Pinewood in London. What did Prague provide you as a filmmaker?

The first thing which was very pragmatic as to why we went to Prague was that it was cheaper. You start with that. Then you have a great studio built by the Nazis. Barrondov, it is big and up to date and easy to work with. It also has a huge backlot that is only 15 minutes from downtown Prague . It leads into a forest so that was very special. The town itself is a total fairy tale town. It to me was like a kid going to Disneyland . It imbued to me that I was in that fairy tale magical world. In a studio, it would be dirty and ugly with lights and then I would go home and look out of the rooftops of Prague , I knew I was in magic land. It is what got me through the movie.

Talking to actors about working with Terry Gilliam, they all say they are so impressed with your enthusiasm on set, even through all the good and bad times. How do you maintain such a sunny disposition all the time?

When I get up in the morning and I really don't want to go to work, because there is this nightmare going on behind the scenes, but then I get to work and there is all this beautiful stuff on the set. I choose my crew very carefully because they have to be good people with good attitude. I realize that I am amongst friends and so I forget about all the stuff behind the scenes and just go for it. I feed off of people and if they are having a good time, then so am I. I am a pretty good cheerleader. I was in High School and college and I still am on sets as well.

Watching the film, the tone does seem to change a few times. There are elements of black comedy, tragedy and then whimsical in nature. How do you manage to move all of these chess pieces of emotion around to make it cohesive?

There are a lot of different tones and moods in films I do because I am greedy in that sense. I want to put people through a real ride. I want tragedy and romance and real beauty and these things are not mutually exclusive. I don't think most people to see movies that allow all those things to live in that world. Most films go down a much narrower road. I throw it all in and hope people can go with it. That is why some movies are better the second time you see them because the first time you are not sure where it is going. I remember when I first saw 2001, I had not idea what was going on. It seemed ridiculously long and unclear and once I got through it, I understood what it was. I like the fact that audience might not be sure of which way it is going and I hope they trust me to get them through it.

What do you hope audiences will take with them when they walk out of this film?

I do want the audience to go out with a lot of the film still stuck in them. Whether it encourages them to read the original material or changes the way they look at the world. I remember with Fisher King, there was a story of a girl who left the theater and walked twenty blocks but in the wrong direction. She was so caught up in the film. Do you know that they now have waltzing in Grand Central Station on New Years Eve? I am not sure if that is because of Fisher King but the film left its mark. I want people to remember it consciously or subconsciously, I want them to have the effect of my film. I don't want them to just say it was okay. I would like them to like it or dislike it, but not feel it was just okay.

MATT DAMON

Growing up, what was your own relationship to Fairy Tales?

My mom read me the Grimms Fairy Tales. We had a book were I still remember the jacket of it. I actually didn't remember how dark they were though. I think my mom might have edited a little bit. I was a little surprised when I re-read them for this film how macabre they were.

It is interesting how people talk about how dark and violent comic books are today but they are almost tame compared to the darkness of some of these stories.

Comic books don't have anything on the Brothers Grimm. Parents probably tell their kids more sanitized versions of them anyway.

So what makes them so interesting?

I think there are life lessons in them. If you re-read them, you can see some judgments in life but more than that for me, I thought they were the first step that you could make up stories and go into these other worlds. I think that is the primary functions in which they serve for kids is that it can allow you to have this imagination and give you permission to tell stories.

When in the process of this film did you come aboard? The script had been floating around for a while.

I came on last. Terry was already on it. I was doing Stuck On You and I got this call. I couldn't believe that the script was still available. The first thing I asked Terry when I spoke to him was why Johnny Depp was not doing this film. I was sitting with Chuck Roven and Terry and Chuck said, "No, we want you. We want you." Terry was just sitting there and asked him. He said that they wouldn't let him do it with Johnny. Three months later Pirates of the Caribbean opened and I am sure they were kicking themselves because they could have had Johnny Depp (laugh). I was really amazed that a great role like this in a Terry Gilliam film was still available.

There was talk in the beginning of you and Heath playing the others character.

Yeah, Heath and I switched roles. At the time when it was offered, I was offered Jake. Heath and I both lobbied Terry to switch roles because I always play the Jake role and heath felt he was always the Will role so we wanted to flip flop. Terry said he did a similar thing with Bruce Willis and Brad Pitt for Twelve Monkeys and he switched them.

As an actor, what did you find interesting about the journey that Will takes that you haven't had the opportunity to do on screen before?

He is just a total blundering fraud. He is very suave and debonair but the minute the shit hits the fan, he is a total coward and panics. I just thought that would be funny as a character.

He also has this pursuit of fame and money. A lot of actors seem to be on that same journey.

Exactly but he does it with absolutely no substance (laugh). The discussions that Heath and I had were that Will never even bothered to learn the tales. Jake was the one that wrote them all down. Jake knows the legend of the bridge troll. Will doesn't care. He just wants to make a buck and find the women in each town.

When you start working with someone like Terry Gilliam, who is such a visual artist, how does that affect you as an actor on set?

Everything that he does is highly choreographed and so you always know where you are. He needs like 200 people for his vision to come to life and so he is good at communicating with everyone where they need to be and what their job is shot to shot. Unlike most directors, he uses like 14 and 17 mm lenses, which are really wide screen, and so he packs the frame from side to side and really deep. He has all these elements moving around. When you sign up to do a Terry Gilliam film, then you are just one of his elements that he will use in any shot. You are aware of what you are but you are not in charge of your own choreography. I know my job is to walk from there to there but there will be geese in the background doing another thing and horses coming this way. He sits there with all the elements and tinkers with it until he gets the alchemy to his eye. Then you move on.

Is he a Clint Eastwood style director who does three takes then moves on or other directors who do forty?

He will do as many as required. He will do a lot because he knows what elements he wants working in a shot and so he will adjusts them slightly. He is also capable of getting hung up on the bird that is not flapping its wing in the top right hand corner of the screen. What bird? But he sees it. The love and passion for him is down to the smallest detail.

As he is a director that likes to shoot in camera, it was you strapped onto that ladder with the fire dancing at your feet.

It was the first time I ever had to do a film where I was lathered in fire retardant. Heath and I were soaking in fire retardant in the middle of this forest fire looking at each other going, "Well, this is new (laugh)." It was a first but it kind of pays off. When you see the monitor, then you can actually see what the film will look like. This film actually had more CGI than Terry normally likes to work with because of the wolf and the birds but by and large, it was all in the camera.

Can you describe another incident where another director might have turned to CGI but Terry stuck with a practical in camera shot?

The fire was a big one. The mirror probably was the other tough sequence. For the mirror in the old tower, they built the old room and then attached to it the exact replica new room. So in between was just the door. Heath had to do one shot in front of the mirror then step around to the other room and do the exact same thing so the effects team could go in and match the shots. When I raised my arm up after I was stabbed and Heath was sitting over me, there was a photo double on the other side matching the action as if it was a mirror. But it was all being done in camera so we could then go look in the monitor and see what we had done.

You mentioned before the torture chamber. As you and Heath did have your share of being dragged around and hung upside down, how physical did it get for you?

It only lasted for the duration of any take. In that situation, it was hard to get us up and down and so they had to have people on ladders help us. We tried to stay up as long as we could and eventually we did get sore. But that was what Heath and I signed up for. We expected to be hung upside down, tied to ladders and burned. That is just the way it will be with Terry. You will not be sitting at a kitchen table spouting dialogue.

You and Heath play brothers and you have brothers in your own life. How closely do you bring elements of that into this performance? Did it enable you to shortcut the relationship?

Yeah. I have never had a sister but I assume it is a similar bond. I think we were lucky in this case that we had a month to rehearse. We used to time to get to know each other and so when we started to film, we had a very good sense of each other. Obviously we would not be as close as real brothers but we had a good rappor with each other. We had a short hand for working together. That is what Terry asked for us and as we rehearsed all day or learned our accents, we would then go off at night and have dinner or drinks together and shoot the shit and that kind of bonding really helped with the chemistry of the two characters.

There is an interesting parallel to the film in how we are back living in a time of superstition and myth. Do you think Terry might have been commenting on that in this film?

I do think so. I think he did want that in the film. There were even more references that were cut out of the film that he made about the modern day political situation.

As a writer yourself, how much infusion do you make on the script?

It all depends. Sometimes I don't say anything. Sometimes I don't need to say anything or I will make minor suggestions. When you sign up for a film, you believe in it so the suggestions you make are minor or just augmentations. Heath and I loved the idea in the scene where Cavaldi is throwing the knife to start screaming and shrieking like school girls. We should have been stoic and tough but anytime there is danger, they run and scream. It is goofier and broader. Terry loved that kind of stuff and those additions. The script didn't mention anything about their reaction so he loved how we interpreted it.

The film changes its tone throughout the film. At first it seems more black comedy and whimsical and then it gets a little more serious. As an actor, were you aware of these changes in mood and was it easy to maintain your character development through that?

We kind of knew that coming in just from reading the script. You also know that Terry never makes anything that can be categorized. I wouldn't even know how to describe this film other than to say it is a Terry Gilliam film. It has all those elements of humor, adventure and fantasy. It is really different from anything. Ultimately it is bizarre (laugh).

Harry Potter has driven kids back to reading. What do you hope The Brothers Grimm might do for those who see it?

Hopefully another avenue to use their imagination. It can be a springboard to creativity as they were in my life. As it did with me, it can help people tell stories. The kids, who Terry showed the film to, really dig it. It gets their adrenaline going and they have responded to the story and they get the images and the references.

HEATH LEDGER

How familiar were you with the writings of the Brothers Grimm?

I was not that familiar. Obviously I had the fairy tales read to me by my mom when I was a kid but we did some research on who these people were. They were highly respected scholars of their time. In fact, Jakob went on to become a politician. But this was Terry's vision of the movie and so all this was pointless to stick to the facts of who they were. That was not what the movie was going to be about. We were putting them in a fairy tale and so we had license to just play with their name.

Terry Gilliam seems to create new worlds in his movies, fairy tale or not.

I am such a huge fan of his work. I grew up watching Monty Python and wanting to be in Monty Python so therefore I was very familiar with his sense of humor and style of comedy. Being aware of that, I wanted to bring that sensibility to my character and to the film because I so desperately to be in one of those films as a kid so I would do anything I could, to present that in my character. People are quick to label him as mad or visually insane. I truly strongly believe that he is sane, just brutally honest. That is rare in Hollywood or today's society to find someone that honest. Where people get confused is that he has so much passion and energy in creating and in his visual eye. It is an absolute treat to be in his film.

You mentioned about bringing that sensibility to your character. Initially, you were cast as Will, not Jacob. How did that switch come about?

It was actually Matt and I at the same time who had this similar idea. We both thought we would like to play the other character to play against type and so approached Terry. He thought about it and thought it would be a good idea. Directors in the past wouldn't give Matt or me the opportunity to play something we hadn't done before. I felt I had played Will and Matt felt he had played Jacob. I guess it was an obvious casting call. By switching it up, it made it more interesting for us. We had to study more and create more but it was worth it. Terry said he did the same on Twelve Monkeys with Brad Pitt and Bruce Willis. He switched their roles around and it made for a more interesting experience all around.

Jacob is a dreamer and a romantic. How closely do those attributes resemble you?

I am definitely a dreamer and a romantic. There was quite a lot of me in Jacob. When I met Terry in London, we sat and shared a drink at some hotel, and when I get nervous, my hands go everywhere (laugh). I lose control of them as I explain things with my hands. As my arms were flailing all around, he was going, "That's great. Do it just like that." He was giggling at my nervous energy. So for the first time instead of being asked to harness my energy, he wanted me to pop the lid off. I just let it fly.

Actors always talk about how they view other people and then use that to help base their character in reality. If that is the case, who did you observe and then utilize as Jacob?

If anyone, it would have been Terry. He is a believer. His energy on set as he creates fuels a lot of passion and that was something I tried to use as well in my character.

Fairy Tales contain violence, magic, death and vengeance. Some complain about cartoon violence but look at what we were taught as kids.

Yeah. They are very dark. The movie kind of represents that nicely, although with humor. But we do have dark corners. Those fairy tales were dark. Mothers were always dying (laugh). I think the film is nicely balanced but it could be intense for an 8 year-old to the see the film. But Terry showed the film to 10 year-olds and they loved it.

Were you surprised at how much the Brothers Grimm had written? So much can be attributed to them as the film subtly hints at.

They wrote over 200 Fairy Tales. I really thoroughly enjoyed going over all their works. We had a book on set so we could cross reference their work and we could add little bits and pieces to the film when we saw fit. For example, I named my horse Piff Paff. I screamed during one scene that my horse, Piff Paff, was eating the girl. That was a name I saw in the book and just shouted it out. We tried to throw in a whole bunch of little things like that from the books.

Back in the 1800's, these stories were passed down from generation to generation as the mythology of the day. Today we have our own superstitions as whom we are to be afraid of. Instead of the Big Bad Wolf, we have terrorists.

I think the timing is quiet perfect actually but I don't think the average movie-goer will read that into the film. But I do understand what you are saying.

Terry deliberately wanted the set to have a whimsical, fantasy based feel to them. How did that enable you to feel more comfortable?

The sets were incredible. I think Terry just naturally does that anyway in all his films. The forests were all indoors in these two massive soundstages, where they pushed the wall down between the two and made one huge stage. It was enormous. Matt and I were actually galloping horses in doors (laugh). It is a strange concept to go full tilt with lights and ceilings above you. On top of that, there was this village Marbaden built behind the Barrandov Studios. You can pretty much shoot 360 degrees anywhere and you would still be inside this world. The houses were not just facades. They were complete where you could actually light fires inside and shoot in any house. Besides that, there was an actual forest that was transplanted to the backlot so when we burned the forest, we really burned a forest.

In the film, Matt plays your brother, a very close bond. In your own life, you have sisters but no brothers. Having to portray such a close brotherly affection during the film, was it easy to access the same emotions you had with your siblings or did you and Matt have to create something new?

We didn't have any scheduled 9 till 11 bonding class (laugh). I did grow up with sisters but I did have a group of guy friends since I was 3 that I still have so I did have that brotherhood. Matt does have brothers and so he was very good at sharing with me the stories of his own brothers. But I think our bonding just happened organically. We had a lot of time prior to shooting as we collaborated and it just naturally happened.

Jacob is viewed as an outsider who has these crazy ideas but in the long run, his ideas are not so crazy after all. How closely do you identify with that? Have you ever been the outsider?

I guess so but I never drew a parallel. Looking back on it, I believed I could be an actor and I left home at an early age to pursue that dream. My father and mother thought I was committing suicide. It wasn't until I started earning money, that they finally understood I was secure and safe. It is hard to convince anyone of your hopes and reams until you manifest them and prove them. So I do see a similarity.

What did you feel The Brothers Grimm tested you at?

It was the first opportunity I had to really do comedy. It was a lot of physical comedy for my character. When I was younger, I studied dance and human movement and this was the first time I was able to use it. Terry was demanding and I wanted desperately to please him and I just wanted to live up to his standards.